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Post by dschroll on Nov 14, 2013 0:39:15 GMT -5
So, I am creating this thread with the hopes that everyone here can help me make a rather big decision. I apologize in advance for the very long post.
About a month ago I was approached by management at my company on if I would be interested in relocating to Japan for 3 years. We have a factory / business unit over there and that division is interested in bringing someone from our office over to go through a training program. The program would last for 3 years essentially training me to become a product manager. After the first year I would officially be a product manager in Japan and would then be supporting our US and Europe offices from Japan. I would also help participate in the possible acquisition of another company.
The company would relocate me and my family, pay for our housing in Japan, provide us some subsidies to cover costs like my transportation costs in Japan, our daughter's education, and language lessons for the family. After the 3 years are up I'd be expected to come back to the Chicago office (where I work now) and be a product manager from here. The goal would be to have me out in Japan come April 2014 so they want to fast track this. All in all, it sounds like a solid opportunity. But, there are a few catches which make the decision a lot more difficult to make:
1) Our daughter will be old enough to start school next year. Unfortunately the city that they want us to live at, while a decent sized city, doesn't have a large international presence. There is an international school there, but its only for children up to the age of 5. After 5, kids would then attend a traditional elementary school. This gives our daughter less than a year to get acclimated to living in this new country so she could attend a Japanese elementary school there starting in 2015.
2) My wife would have to quit her job. She currently enjoys her job a lot, but at the same time is willing to quit if I really want to take this opportunity.
3) There's a good chance that I would have to live apart from my family for 6 months, seeing them only on weekends. The company has a couple of offices in Japan that are about 2 hours apart by train. They want me working at one of the offices for the first 6 months and then I would work at the other for the next 2.5 years. Unfortunately my family would reside in the city with the main office as it is a more populated city and has schools for my daughter. The city I would be at for the first 6 months is really in the middle of nowhere. Its too far away for me to commute back and forth daily, so I would likely reside in that city for the first 6 months and just come visit my family on weekends.
4) My family currently has a dog. We can bring the dog with us to Japan, but it requires us to jump through a number of hoops. The company will not pay for any of that. Additionally, it will significantly limit the places we can live in Japan as many are not pet friendly.
5) I have asked management what my compensation would be when returning back from Japan. The main reason being is that my wife will not have a job immediately when we return from Japan, so my family is completely reliant on my income. Unfortunately management will not specify what my compensation is when coming back. They only tell me that I will be promoted to product manager and my salary will be "competitive." This is a big sticking point with me because my company's idea of competitive salaries are generally on the very low end from most other companies. I'm definitely not thrilled with making such a commitment and not knowing what I'm coming back to.
So, with that all being said, I can't deny that I am very attracted by this opportunity. Its essentially a once in a lifetime opportunity and I doubt I would ever get this kind of opportunity ever again in my career. It seems like it could be a great opportunity for my career in the long run and has the potential to be an amazing experience for me and my family. But it will no doubt have numerous hardships as well and will require a lot of sacrifice on our part, especially financially as I'll most certainly be making less money than my wife and I do combined. There's just so many unknowns here: -Will my family be happy there? -What will I get paid when I get back? -Will my daughter's education suffer? -Will my wife struggle to find a job upon our return because she will have been out of work for 3 years?
This decision is extremely difficult and I'm just not sure what to do here. I welcome any feedback or insight anyone can provide here.
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Post by UsualNoise on Nov 14, 2013 1:25:06 GMT -5
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Post by reaper on Nov 14, 2013 9:06:34 GMT -5
Wow, that sounds amazing and scary and fun and horrible and great and everything all mixed up. I suspect you're feeling all of those as well.
I like the article posted by UsualNoise and I'll expand on it a bit and add my thoughts. I have a father in law that lived in Taiwan for a while. And I neighbor down the street that lived in China for a few years.
I believe they had some very interesting life experiences there. I agree that you could be limiting your daughter's potential. But you could also be rapidly expanding it way beyond what you could do here in the US alone. She'll be exposed to another language very early, she'll see another culture and learn how they differ from us.
You and your wife will get to see all new sights and sounds and let's be real... you'll love Japan.
Definitely some concerns with the pets and all but here's my bottom line.
I think that if you want to have this experience of living in Japan and you believe your family would enjoy it as well. I think you should go. If you don't want to live in Japan or you know your wife hates the idea, then I think you should stay. Your daughter is too young to ask so you need to decide for her but I can say from personal experience that my kids adapted to new surroundings amazingly fast when I had to move them to NC.
If it's about the money or the job and the family life will suffer to get you the money or the position you want, I'd say forget it. The older I get, the more I realize that life is more about the experiences and less about stuff. It's funny. When I was a kid, I wanted to grow up so I had enough money to buy all that cool stuff I saw in the store. Now, I have the money and I wish I was a kid, running around the neighborhood, having fun with all that free time!
So, I would look at the situation more from the angle of the experience that you and your family can have. Do you want that experience in Japan? If so, then go. If not, then stay. I would cut out all the job stuff and just live life. I think the money will work itself out well enough either way. You'll probably be well off enough to find joy in life whether you go or stay.
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Post by fatty on Nov 14, 2013 10:37:16 GMT -5
Wow, I read that right before hitting the hay last night, some very big decisions to make. I do agree with what was already posted by reaper and UsualNoise, very good advice. But yeah, as reaper said ultimately it is going to come down to that experience that you and your family want to have. For me, it would be hard to be away from my family during the week for those first six months. My first job after college I would sometimes have field assignments, most would not last too long. But when my oldest daughter was around 2 I had a field job that lasted about 2 and a half months. I got to fly home every two weeks (I flew them out to see me once) but it was tough for me. I think it is much easier with Skype now and face time, but working 13 hour days and coming home to an empty hotel room was rough. And as blessed as I was to have that job, the travel was what lead me to the place that I am at now (though it is not as stable in regards to billable work). Keep in mind I am on one end of the spectrum being someone who hates travel away from home, if I told my wife that I had that same opportunity to work in Japan she would probably be all over it. If it's about the money or the job and the family life will suffer to get you the money or the position you want, I'd say forget it. The older I get, the more I realize that life is more about the experiences and less about stuff. It's funny. When I was a kid, I wanted to grow up so I had enough money to buy all that cool stuff I saw in the store. Now, I have the money and I wish I was a kid, running around the neighborhood, having fun with all that free time! This is so true. Again, I am thankful for my job, don't get me wrong. But it is not something I truly love doing. As I get older and see how fast time goes by, I really want to enjoy all of life. I've been the only means of income in our family for the last twelve years and we've done just fine. We don't buy new cars and you all know how I am with getting the deals...but we've gotten by pretty good. Great, actually. Last night I wrote out the last check to pay off the balance of our mortgage, and we'll finally be debt free (yay!). But now we're looking at how to get more out of life, and money isn't really high on the list. My wife is taking community college courses and is looking to start the nursing program next year. In the next 5 years I'm going to work toward getting my masters in electrical engineering...with the plans on being able to use that degree to go into teaching at a college or even high school. Either teach or make it where my wife and I are working part time so we can be able to enjoy not working so much. We have a real passion for foster care and that is where I feel God is leading us. I guess what I'm trying to get at is if you do choose to do this, don't do it for financial reasons (I wouldn't count on management compensating you adequately, esp. based off of their response), but if this is something that you and your family want to experience as another chapter in your life then go for it. I would really talk to the wife to about it, since she is giving up a job she loves. Yet I know you two have already discussed it extensively, and who knows, this sacrifice could be worth it. It is a hard decision indeed, but if you go into it with the right motivations I think it will work out for the best. I remember when you first had your daughter, and now she's four? Time sure does fly.
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Post by reaper on Nov 14, 2013 11:34:57 GMT -5
Congrats on the mortgage payout Fatty! That's awesome!!
I do want to add that when I lost my job in Indy, I lived in Ohio with my parents while my wife and kids were in Indy for a couple months. Then I moved out to NC for a week or two and was without them during that time. It definitely sucks. That is certainly one of the hardest points of the consideration. But at least you know the end. It's not as if it's an open ended thing where you're away from your family for a long time and you don't know when you'll be living with them again. You can see the light at the end of the tunnel. So, maybe that might make it tolerable? It's too abd that 6 mos doesn't occur at the end of the 3 yr term when everyone is settled. Having that right at the beginning is hard and 6 months is going to feel like a looong time when you're in the middle of it. Looking back, it'll be a flash in the pan of your life. But during that 6 mos, you'll feel like you are missing out on your kids.
I was surprised at how well my kids handled me being away though. Having a stay-at-home mom made the transition easier on them but it wasn't ideal.
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Post by oldskoolboarder on Nov 14, 2013 11:49:43 GMT -5
Wow. First off, congrats, that is an amazing opportunity, albeit a difficult decision. My gut reaction when seeing the initial post: 1) Holy crap, he's going to Nintendo. 2) Damn, I'm jealous. 3) Do it. I would in a HEARTBEAT. I have never lived long term in another country but I have done international sales when I was single and I LOVED LOVED LOVED it. The experience was worth it, especially since it was all on the company dime. But I love variety and travel. I still envy friends/coworkers who get the opportunity to relocate to interesting places. Those are things you can't plan for or create on your own w/o great difficulty. Issues of concern: 1) If your daughter was a baby or a toddler I'd be concerned. But kids are more resilient that we give them credit for. Only you and your wife know your kid best, but if you can create a strong sense of self and 'home' around her, she'll be fine no matter where you are. 2) 6 mos away seems long, but it's not. Shit, think how long we've known each other on this board. It'll be hard but there's no reason why your family can't come your way once in a while. 3) Your wife's job. If she's willing to go with no remorse, do it. Then on the next go around in life, she can get the choice. Fair is fair, that's how we do it in our house. 4) Dog is tough, it's a family member. We had an aggressive lab we LOVED but made our life (in hindsight) very limited. He passed in 2007 and we didn't have a dog in our house until we started fostering for a lab rescue a few years ago. Now we realize what's possible and how crazy Murphy was. You can find a temp home for the dog in the US as you settle in and figure out the right housing. If you can't bring the dog, perhaps rescues can help you find a place for him/her. OR, just suck it up and pay what you have to. As a family friend always says, 'It's not a problem, it's an expense.' 5) Returning compensation. Dude, that's 3 years from now. You don't know what'll happen. Maybe you'll get lucky and you'll get noticed by Nintendo or Sony Entertainment. Your wife might find an opportunity and then make more $$ (sorry, don't know the yen key...) than you. But you know our industry. An American that's not only fluent in Japanese but also knows the culture by virtue of living there? That's come cachet you can't buy. Also, in 3 years, Chicago may not be home anymore. You may want to relocate to areas where your (and your family's) expertise is more highly valued, like the Bay Area... AND, you don't necessarily have to come back to semi's. You might be able that expertise to something completely different. You never know. As I get older (I'm 46), I've developed more of a Carpe Diem attitude. People scrimp/save/suffer for years for what? So you can have $$ in the bank but you're too old/weak to enjoy and your kids aren't interested in you anymore? Things like Typhoon Haiyan (thankfully no one in my family was hurt) and high school friends (my age) who've recently passed from brain tumors drill that into my brain more and more. Things like this don't come around often. The experiences you can gain really depend on how open you are. I'm sure you realize how many families nowadays KILL to put their kids in Spanish emersion programs when they're in grade school, I'm sure it's similar in the greater Chicago area. But for you to have a long term family emersion program? Slam dunk to me. Some things you might ask your employer to help with 1) This may be tough but ask if you can get a guaranteed return package. If it doesn't work, you can at least you can come back and make sure they send you back vs you covering it. That should also guarantee they send you back after 3 years. 2) Ask if they can provide some kind of work visa for your wife. It may not be directly related to our wife's field but at least she can keep busy or try something new herself. In the end, DO IT. There are details to manage, things to close, things that aren't ideal. But life isn't always ideal and chances like this are rare.
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NoThru22
Casual Gamer
Two Worlds > Elder Scrolls
Posts: 866
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Post by NoThru22 on Nov 15, 2013 10:28:42 GMT -5
I have the same situation with opportunities my wife has presented me in China but I won't do it simply because I don't want my son going to a school in China. If you had this opportunity with no kids, I'd say take it take it take it, but with the kid, I say no.
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Post by dschroll on Nov 17, 2013 2:01:55 GMT -5
Thank you everyone for the great feedback. This is exactly what I was looking for and really wanted to gain different perspectives on this opportunity. So, just to give everyone some more feedback on things.
First off, I'm not in semi's anymore. My current role in the US has me focused on MEMS sensor products. However, this particular opportunity would be based around electromechanical switches. Our switch factory in Japan is looking to really diversify its personnel and get more people coming from other countries to come study in Japan as opposed to constantly sending people from Japan over to other countries. Its a very progressive division of the company. I was selected as one of two possible candidates for this training program. I interviewed for it and was ultimately awarded the opportunity. Of course, details about the actual program were very limited before interviewing, so I am learning many more details as the weeks go by and have to decide if this will be right my for my family and I.
Product wise, I'm not all that excited about things as I'm not sure how interesting it will be. Still, I'm the first to admit that even something as simple as a switch can have a lot of complexity to it and there are probably many many things for me to learn about the product.
The real attraction to the opportunity for me was ultimately the experience of living over in Japan and getting to see and experience a whole other part of the world. The job itself seems less exciting than I'd prefer, and would ultimately be the means to an end to give my family the experience of life in Japan. That being said, while the job may not seem all that exciting, it would be a HUGE boost to my resume with the experience I'll gain from this could certainly give my career the shot in the arm it needs.
First and foremost I am a family guy though. I love my family and put their well being above all else. I would never take this job solely to boost my career because it will always come second to that of my family. That's ultimately why this decision is so tough on me. There are a TON of potential upsides to us going on this adventure, but there are also a ton of potential downsides as well. The last thing I want is for us all to get there and 6 months or a year in my wife and daughter tell me how miserable they are and don't want to stay anymore. While my wife doesn't expect that to happen, it is still a possibility.
My wife does have experience living abroad as she is an army brat and lived in Europe for a good part of her childhood. Still, Japan is MUCH different than Europe and my wife recognizes this and certainly has her concerns. Ultimately my wife falls right in the middle on all of this. She can take it or leave it. She knows we'll find happiness whether we stay or we go, but she doesn't feel strongly one way or another. This ultimately forces the decision back to me, which feels very stressful since it impacts so many people quite significantly.
The hardest part for me is this possible 6 months of living apart from my family. I had hopes that we wouldn't have to live apart and I could just commute to this other office via car. However, when looking at a map this evening I discovered that its roughly 2+ hours by car, so that will be out of the question. This office is really out in the middle of nowhere with no good schooling options for my daughter, so it looks like we would have to live apart during that time so my daughter could go to school in another town. Obviously with Skype and FaceTime we could talk every day and I can come see them on weekends (or they see me). Still, I am very close with my daughter and hate the idea that I'm missing so much of her life. Plus I cannot imagine initial life in Japan will be easy on us, so living apart will just make things that much more stressful. Now, I was told that most likely the first few weeks in Japan my family and I would be together so I could help them get situated, but after about 3 weeks I'd likely have to start working in the other office and live apart from them. This is really the hardest thing for me to get past at this point. I think I may email the manager in Japan and see if he can be flexible on this portion of the training program. Perhaps we can do this portion later rather than initially, or perhaps we can reduce it to 3 months as opposed to 6. I just think 6 months will seem very LONG and make things very stressful for the entire family. At the end of the day, what's the point of going to Japan for this amazing experience if we're all lonely and miserable for 6 months of it?
Some other info that seems nice is that Japan does get an awful lot of holidays. There are roughly 4 weeks worth of holidays in Japan each year. I believe they have 3 holidays that last 1-week each spread over the year, so these will be nice times to get to be with my family. Additionally, the company will allow us to travel back to the US for up to 2 weeks once per year, company paid (transportation only). On top of that I'll also have 23 vacation days per year. The vacation time seems like a sweet deal as all that combined roughly means 2.5 months of time off of work per year while working in Japan. But, I've heard from colleagues that you're typically pressured to not use your vacation time and instead work. It doesn't mean I can't use it, just means they kind of frown upon it (understandable given Japanese culture tends to put work above all else).
So, now you know that I'm definitely in this for the experience. I had hopes to make good money out of it too, but that wasn't the main reason I was interested in it. I have concerns about how much strain this could have on my wife and daughter, especially for the period while I am working at the other office. Should I push back on corporate and tell them working at the other office for 6 months is just not going to work? Do you guys think I'm making a bigger deal out of that than it is? I'll bring up the conversation about a guaranteed return package, but have been waiting to have that conversation until I got some other answers first. My wife will be allowed to work there, but I don't think they will provide her a work VISA. She'll likely have to get someone else to sponsor her for that.
Again, feel free to keep the feedback/questions coming as it really helps me to talk about all of this stuff. My wife is getting tired of talking about it and wants me to make a decision so she can start planning for next year one way or another. Its just so hard when there are so many unknowns and its unlike anything we've ever done before...
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Post by oldskoolboarder on Nov 17, 2013 12:48:30 GMT -5
This is just me, but 6 months isn't a long time. AND, w/ all the vacation/holidays, it'll get shorter. The transition will be tough whether you are there or not. I'd just make sure (in writing) that it's just 6 mos, any longer and they'll have to help you figure out some extra travel expenses or living situation where you are w/ your family.
I still say do it. It'll be hard. But things that are worth it usually are.
I wouldn't sweat the product-specifics. MEMS is big now and electro-mech switches may not be as 'hot' but you never know. MEMS was supposed to be hot 15 yrs ago and it took a while to catch. It's the experience you want.
PLUS, if after a while it really doesn't work out w/ the job, family, whatever, there's no reason you can't come back home. Yeah, it'll be a hassle, maybe they won't cover you but then you can at least tell yourself (and your family) that you gave it a shot.
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Post by dschroll on Nov 20, 2013 16:15:27 GMT -5
Well guys, it looks like all that worry may have been for nothing. Manager called me into the office today saying our factory in Japan isn't as far along in this process as he thought they were. They are still having to figure out a lot of various details. He said the Japan thing could be delayed indefinitely. I'll get the official word on Friday.
Sigh...I finally got to a place where I was comfortable with the idea of going there and that it would be an amazing experience and now I'm told it may not happen. Ugh.
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Post by oldskoolboarder on Nov 20, 2013 16:45:16 GMT -5
That's a bummer. But put it this way, now you know what your decision is.
You sound disappointed that it's not happening (at least not sure if it's a done deal). That pretty much tells you that you want to go.
So if/when this thing comes around again, you know your answer.
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Post by reaper on Nov 20, 2013 17:53:42 GMT -5
Agreed with oldskool on all counts! Hope you get the opportunity again! At least you can relax in familiar surroundings for now.
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Post by dschroll on Nov 20, 2013 22:44:26 GMT -5
Thanks guys. Yeah, my decision next time is much easier. I am hopeful this one will come back around, but am not sure. I'll keep everyone posted.
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Post by dschroll on Jan 15, 2014 14:42:00 GMT -5
Well, things are back on the table again. My wife and I are scheduled to fly out to Japan in early Feb. to meet with some people. From there we'll be presented with the information we'll need to decide if we're going to be doing this or not. The more this becomes like a real thing again, the scarier it gets
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Post by reaper on Jan 15, 2014 14:52:41 GMT -5
Wow! Congrats on the renewed opportunity. I think you were blessed with the clear insight of your feelings should the opportunity go away. Now you know exactly how you'd feel if you *couldn't* do this. Keep us updated!
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Post by oldskoolboarder on Jan 15, 2014 16:38:29 GMT -5
F'in AWESOME. I was wondering why this thread was bumped. Officially jealous.
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Post by fatty on Jan 17, 2014 10:50:45 GMT -5
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Post by dschroll on Feb 8, 2014 12:33:56 GMT -5
Off to Japan for the week to get job details and look around. Wish me luck!
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Post by reaper on Feb 8, 2014 17:33:31 GMT -5
Awesome! Have fun! Good luck
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Post by oldskoolboarder on Feb 9, 2014 13:40:42 GMT -5
Good luck!
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