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Post by reaper on Feb 24, 2014 13:02:46 GMT -5
Sorry it didn't work out this time. Good luck on getting the opportunity again!
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Post by dschroll on Feb 25, 2014 6:20:42 GMT -5
I just wanted to thank everyone again for listening to this very lengthy saga and for chiming in to help me during this process. I really do appreciate everyone's thoughts and kindness. I am sorry how this all ended but it's certainly made me all the wiser for it. I am grateful to have this board and such good people on it as these kinds of events and decisions would've crushed me to face them on my own. I'll keep everyone posted should other opportunities come up again in the future. For now I think its time to retire this thread. Thank you again everyone.
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Post by dschroll on Feb 25, 2014 6:36:57 GMT -5
By the way, I'm off to Vegas and Reno this week for work. If anyone is in the area as well, give me a shout.
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Post by oldskoolboarder on Feb 25, 2014 11:18:58 GMT -5
You're missing Vegas by a few weeks. I'll be there for the first couple of days of March Madness.
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Post by dschroll on May 31, 2014 4:00:55 GMT -5
Ok everyone. I need your help again. Let me start by saying this time it's not about me moving to Japan. But it still concerns my job and I'm having a lot of internal debate about things and would love to get some fresh perspective from others on this. I'll try and keep this relatively short, oh who am I kidding? We know this will be long.
So, as I mentioned earlier in one of these Japan posts, because I did not take the job in Japan, my company gave me a promotion as of April 1, 2014. The promotion is nothing huge, but it netted me a little more money and a new title with A LOT more responsibility. I'm essentially the product marketing manager for Sensor products within the company. I don't "manage" anyone, but basically I'm tasked with trying to grow sensor business whichever way I can. Generally this role has me working with various internal sales people as ultimately my job to educate the sales force on these products and convince them to promote them to customers. Additionally I'll be working closely with various people in Japan of which I've built some very good relationships during my time at the organization (almost 9 years now).
Overall I like my job and enjoy what I do. However, there are some things I very much dislike about the organization(at least on the US side of it). Not enough to drive me to look for another job, but certainly things that I'm generally not happy about. Such things are many of the decision makers at the US office. The company's policy on raises and/or promotions (promotional raise only 5% max. Merit raise averages 3%, rarely higher). TONS of office politics going on, moreso than any other company I've worked for. Additionally, my company will be relocating in a couple of weeks....an additional 5 miles further away. So, this will bring my daily commute from 1 hour each way to more likely 1:15 each way. Definitely not a fan of having a longer daily commute. And while I'm not opposed to more responsibility with a higher position, the expectations for the extra work they are dumping on me are very unrealistic given I was already crazy busy before the promotion. The company has a bad habit of spreading people too thin as it's far more focused on reducing headcount to as few as people to save money. "Do more with less" has become a commonly used phrase internally. I did get screwed on money there a couple of times, mainly not getting a merit increase for 2 years even though I had strong performance reviews (due to hitting a salary cap). That was never rectified later when I was promoted, but it's still something I thought was handled poorly.
On the other side of the coin, there are some things I very much like about my job. I like many of the people I work with on a daily basis. I like the products that I support (unless the business unit in Japan is being stupid) and I have some very strong relationships with these people in Japan...borderline friendships even. I generally enjoy some of the travel perks that come with the job, namely annual trips to Japan and there's talks that I may be able to go to Munich in November for Electronica. The money I make is decent. Not great, but certainly not bad. I've been with the company almost 9 years now and made a decent name for myself.
I'm sure you can see where this is all going, but bare with me. About 3 years ago(2011), prior to me receiving any kind of promotion at my company, I had started to look elsewhere for employment. I interviewed with a company for a Field Sales position. I took the interview mostly thinking I would use it for good interview practice. The company itself didn't seem all that interesting (they make inductors). To my surprise, I walked away from the interview much more impressed with the company than I expected. Seemed like a good place to work. People were all very friendly and it seemed to be a very employee focused company. In the end, I had gotten a job offer from them. The downside was that the job offer, while decent, wasn't much more than I was already making. Additionally, this company is located even further from my home than my current job, but the good news is that it was mainly a work out of your house job, only coming in the office a couple times a week.
Anyway, I talked with many many people about things, including my own boss at the time, who told me bigger things were coming for me at the company if I wait. Not to mention my wife was on her way out of her job, so stability was going to be key for us so I figured maybe now is not the time to start over someplace else. I wrote a very nicely worded email to the hiring manager and HR person at the inductor company and kindly turned down the offer. I tried to leave things on good terms, but I decided it wasn't a good time to start over someplace else, especially for marginally more money.
That brings us to April 2014. I got an email from the HR person at this inductor company again. They are looking for a new field sales guy (they're promoting the last one who had the job) and the hiring manager had remembered me and wanted to see if I'd be interested in exploring the opportunity. Having just recently been promoted, I generally tell people contacting me about job opportunities that I'm not interested and want to see this new role through. However, since I thought very highly of that company last time I spoke with them, I agreed to have a meeting with them about the job.
Prior to the meeting, I confirmed several details. Base salary is about 11-15% higher than my current base. Bonus is lower percentage wise and a little more variable based on overall company performance, but still a bonus nonetheless. They would also provide me a car allowance and gas card (don't get those now). And their benefits looked better too with higher 401k match and lower health insurance costs. Not to mention the commute should be better as I'd only have to go to the office twice a week and the other days I either work from my home or visit local customers. Their office is far away though (40+ miles each way), so my drive on those office days looks long, but only twice a week. Plus, I told them that on those office days I would need them to be flexible with my hours so I could still pick up and drop off my daughter from school. The manager agreed that he could be flexible.
So, I had a meeting with the manager and HR person and sure enough, the manager said he thinks I would fit in well with their company. His main concern was if my commute to his office was going to be tolerable for me, even though it was only 2 days a week. I didn't think it would be an issue given I have been doing long commutes for the better part of my career and that as long as he could be flexible on office house, I should be fine.
A couple weeks after the meeting, and prior to my trip to Japan, I get an email saying that they want me to come back in for another round of interviews (similar to what I had a few years ago). I told them I was going to Japan for 2 weeks, so it would have to wait til I return. Scheduled to interview with them on June 9. Of course I feel bad for going to Japan in the first place because I'm spending all this company money and now am thinking of quitting? But, I had already booked the Japan trip before initial contact from this company and was getting a lot of pressure to take that trip from the people in Japan.
Fast forward to my trip to Japan. It was an excellent trip. Met with many people. Received very good product training. And was basically taken out for dinner and drinks each night. In fact, a few people here hung out with me over the weekend, taking me to see temples and do karaoke. It was a blast. In all of my meetings, everyone kept telling me how excited they were about me helping support their products from the US and how they expect me to help grow their business. I was a little concerned with how much added work they want from me, but overall, the meetings were positive and very optimistic about my participation.
Now I'm back from Japan and am really struggling with what to do here. I feel awful about the possibility of me leaving and how many people in Japan I would disappoint. Like I said, I have some pretty strong relationships with a few of them. In Japan, the culture is very different there. In the US, you can get away with saying, "It's not personal, it's business." But for people in Japan, it's personal. Their job defines them and they gain a lot of personal pride from it. For me to spend all this time with them and possibly quit makes me feel like a total dick.
I'm seriously debating emailing this new company and backing out of the interview. A friend of mine thinks I should take the interview regardless as I'm already thinking 2 steps ahead in terms of what if I get the job. But, since I got the job last time and the manager seems to like me even more today, that I have to think the odds are in my favor.
I figure if I back out of things before the interview, maybe I could still be on good terms with this company should I later want to try with them again. However, if I wait until the interview and get an offer and then back out, I cannot imagine they would ever bother with me again having turned down 2 job offers.
So, what do I do here? What would you do if you were me? There are pros/cons to both companies, but my damn conscience is making it really hard for me to leave my current job because of so many people in Japan that are counting on my support. Had this new job offer come to me a few months ago when the Japan thing didn't work out, I would be all over it. But now it comes a few months later post a very good trip to Japan and I'm struggling with what my next move should be.
Should I take the interview anyway? Should I politely back out?
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Post by reaper on May 31, 2014 10:40:22 GMT -5
Personally, I think you should take a cold approach to the situation. Don't factor in feelings, emotions or the expectations of people in Japan into your decision. Remember how your company recently treated you with respect to your move to Japan.
You've had 2 opportunities to understand this other job offer. That is enough to decide whether you should take the job. Use what you know and make a career decision now based solely on what is best for you, your professional future and your family. If your decision is to go to this other company, then take the next interview and work out the last remaining details and move forward with the deal barring any deal breakers that may occur during that time period. If your decision is that your current position is best for you and your family, then decline the next interview with another kind note and hope the position remains open.
There are no guarantees in life and based on what I've seen in business since graduating... business is business and you need to do what is best for you.
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Post by UsualNoise on May 31, 2014 12:19:43 GMT -5
I tend to agree with reaper here in that you can't let people in Japan affect this decision, although they're friends. Just because work is personal for them doesn't mean it should be for you.
Similar to last time, I'd say make the decision that lets you be with your family the most. Your daughter won't remember your job title in 10 years but she will remember time spent with you. If working from home more often and having less time spent commuting would result from switching jobs ... maybe that's a better option. (Reminds me of Proverbs 4:6 - "Better is a handful of rest than two handfuls of hard work and chasing after the wind.")
Not an easy decision, especially when you've spent almost a decade at your current company. Hope it works out, keep us posted.
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Post by oldskoolboarder on May 31, 2014 23:20:25 GMT -5
Dude, this is EASY. Keep interviewing. This is personal, yes. BUT FOR YOU. You already know your company here. AND, as you continue to work there, you still work in the US, not Japan. They can be as nice as they can, but they don't sign your check. You don't deal w/ them on a daily basis.
You've posed this a few times. Maybe it IS time for a change. More money, benefits, etc are all nice. Shorter/longer commute, honestly, doesn't mean shit. You have to like what you are doing, regardless of anything else, because if it's going to take you away from your family, it better be worth it. And UsualNoise is correct. Your kid won't know/care what your job title is or who you work for. But she sure as hell will know if dad comes home tired/cranky all the time vs wanting to hang out and play w/ her and be happy. All the money/401K/benefits can't buy that.
Work is business. You don't owe a ton to Japan, remember that you aren't working there. AND trying to focus on your type of job in that environment is tough, we have a similar situation at work. But guess what? It's like that at EVERY company, big or small. You know I work in semi's and there's only a few big competitors to jump to. Some are better than mine, but I've seen people jump ship and go work other places. AND, some of those people came back in the last few years. And my place isn't the greatest, trust me. EVERY place has their own version of politics, so you really just need to look out for yourself. What will make you better going forward? Where will you learn AND where will they give you the tools and support to do so? NEVER jump only because of money/benefits, because that can get pulled from you fast whenever there's a downturn.
I agree w your assessment. If I were this other company and you said no a 2nd time, you'd never hear from me again.
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Post by dschroll on May 31, 2014 23:47:36 GMT -5
Thanks everyone. I'll likely stick with the interview and decide what to do should they make me an offer to come on board.
Of the jobs I've had in my career, I like this one the best thus far. But, as I've said, I also have some major issues with the key decision makers in the company. This new company seems like a good company. Very family friendly from what I've been told. Not commuting everyday to an office also makes me think I'll get more family time in than I will at my current job. Additionally, this new company is bending over backwards to work with me on any issues I have to come on board. Can't say the same can be said with my current employer.
I've also read articles about how it's not good to stay with a company for too long and it makes you less marketable. All these things have me leaning towards moving someplace else.
But, having spent 9 years with a company, I've built up some great relationships and the idea of walking away from them is difficult. Not to mention I know people in the past have left our company and regretted it later, trying to come back. The company has a strict policy in not hiring people back once they leave, so if I walk away from here, it's for good.
It's definitely tough to decide. I'm sorta happy here, but I could be more happy somewhere else. As reaper said, there's no guarantees. Do I gamble with what I have to try and be more happy someplace else? Just a lot to think about. But nonetheless, I will stick with the interview and see what comes of it.
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Post by fatty on Jun 1, 2014 23:59:45 GMT -5
A lot of what you wrote resonates with me dschroll because I was kind of in the same interview situation.
Last year another engineering company contacted me and I agreed to go in for an interview, basically just to hear what they had to say and get practice since the last time I had an interview was 7 years prior. They were interested but wanted to know how interested I was before going further with an offer. I politely declined, thanked them for their time but told them I was still happy where I was.
A bit more background. I work in a small company that is part of a much bigger company. Last year our very small office was facing billability (sp) issues (we still are) and my boss has a one on one talk with me telling me that he may be asked to reduce head count. If it would come to that, he would tell the higher ups in the head office that he wouldn't do it, and would fall on the sword himself instead of having to layoff yet another round of employees (we've been shrinking over the years). But even if he was let go, he said my job could still be in jeopardy since I only had overhead type work ahead of me and there wasn't nothing stopping them from adding me to the head count. He wasn't supposed to tell me this but wanted me to be aware and that I may want to explore my options.
Well, seeing the writing on the wall I reached back out to this engineering company I interviewed with. Things went well and told them my predicament in a diplomatic way (they were already aware of the situation anyway since a lot of the people we laid off ended up going there anyway). Things went well and they gave me an offer. I was pretty much going to take it, esp. considering my boss (who has been the best one I've ever had) would probably no longer be at the company. That and the new position seemed one that I would really do well in and like.
Well about a week later, that dreadful day came, and my boss and three other managers voluntarily left the company to help keep us afloat on being billable. My decision was then pretty much decided. Or so I thought. But I had a long talk with my wife. Again. After a lot of prayer and discussion, it came down to me still liking the place that I was at and in the back of my mind I really didn't want to leave.
So I stayed. And I had to go back and tell that company, after I had reached back out to them no less, that I regretfully had a change of heart and decided to stay and see this thing through (in my mind I knew it might not work out for me in the long run, but this was the place I wanted to be). In telling them that I felt I was not only burning the bridge with this engineering company but I had detonated it with a crap load of C-4. Turns out they understood (at least that is what they said), and even contacted me again this year and met me again for lunch. I told them I was still sticking to the same plan and things with them ended on a good note and was told to contact them if I ever change my mind.
Work still hasn't picked up here but we're trying. Raises are still crappy (~2-3% per year for the last 4 years), benefits keep getting worse. But the people I work with and the flexibility that I have make up for that. Many people will see it as me not making a very smart decision. But I'm happy here. And I may lose my job down the line but that's OK, I'll just find another one.
Why am I babbling on and on about this, just to say that I can sympathize with the stress you're feeling. But I believe you gotta do what you think is going to make you happy. Don't worry about what articles say about staying/leaving. Don't worry about what others may think about you whether you stay or go. I started to do that, because hey, I'm pretty sensitive to others' feelings, but I'm glad I didn't. This is what made me happy, even if it wasn't the 'smartest' move career wise.
For you, taking that position might be the right decision for you. Talk it over with the wife, and do what is best for you. So I guess I wrote all of this to say I'm pretty much agreeing with reaper, Usual Noise and oldskool lol.
Some other thoughts I have on the side: 1 to 1:15 hr drive each way. Holy smokes man. I thought my 32 mile 35-40 min drive was long (Kansas City has pretty good highways). Also being able to work from home? Oh boy!! If I was able to work from home, that is the one thing that would push me over the edge to get another job, haha.
Another note, my former boss actually went back to my former company and has an even better title and is doing really good for himself. He's a really good guy and I'm glad he's enjoying it there.
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Post by oldskoolboarder on Jun 2, 2014 1:05:48 GMT -5
If you work from you, you REALLY have to know if you can do it. I can 'kinda' do it but unless you have a real quiet space and family understanding that when you're 'working' you're not available, it's hard.
TBH, if I had to work solely at home, I probably couldn't do it. I'm too easily distracted. I don't have a real office space other than my man cave. And that's not conducive to work. Years ago, during before my senior year of college, I took a contract position to write a s/w package in VisualBASIC on a PC. I new BASIC but because I spent my entire college on a Mac Plus, I didn't know shit about DOS. I was paid a lump sum and told to come back in a month w/ some results. So you know what I did for 3 weeks? Jack shit. I watched TV, played games, pretty much anything but work. And the last week or so (I was late...) was spent kludging something together. I must not have been awful, I was hired part time and took a version of that s/w to Singapore a few months later. I was hired full time after graduation and worked their for 8 years.
I'm in sales and I often get the chance to work at home. But the only time I'm productive is after 10 PM when everyone is asleep. If the sun is out and I'm home, I just can't work...
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Post by dschroll on Jun 2, 2014 5:17:12 GMT -5
Wow fatty, you weren't kidding. We definitely are in similar situations. However, the main difference for me is that I'm just not sure if I stay with my current job it's because I'm happy there or it's because it's the safe thing to do. Of the 3 jobs I've had over my 14 years working since college, I've liked this company the best and I've enjoyed this job the most. Overall it's a solid company with some good people that have been with the company 20-30 years, so that says something about it. So, I agree with oldskool and would never leave to go somewhere else for just more money. However, this new company seems to consist of a lot of good people too. Also has many people that have been with the company for 20-30 years. Even during one of my interviews at this company I was very up front with them in terms of my lack of experience and knowledge on the automotive industry as those are some key customers they want me calling on. They said it wasn't a problem, they would train me on the technical stuff. They just wanted someone with the "right personality" to work for them and felt I would fit in very well with their team. So, it seems they like who I am. I've been told they are a picky company and are very selective who they hire. The last time they offered me a job, when I turned it down, it took them almost a year to fill it and it wasn't for lack of applicants.
So, as I mentioned, it's tough to say which one will make me happier. I can likely find happiness at either, but not sure which one I'd prefer. It feels like if I stay I'd be staying because it's safe. I know what to expect. Yes, I'm doing more challenging work now than I ever have, but ultimately I'm familiar with the pros/cons of the company and what i'll be doing in this role. Taking a job someplace else feels a step out of my comfort zone. It's with an American company on a product line I'm not familiar with calling on an industry I'm not familiar with. But perhaps taking a step out of my comfort zone is what I need right now. Maybe it will force me to really step up and start learning some new things and make me stronger professionally. I'm just not sure.
In terms of working from home, it would only be for 3 days a week and then I am expected to be in their office the other 2. It wouldn't be all work from home during those 3 days as I'd also have to go visit customers during some days, but other days it could be just emails/calls from home. No home office sadly. I just set up at the dining room and start cranking away at things. I've worked from home before and while I do goof around some I still find most of the time I'm more productive than in the office. Mainly because we have a lot of chatty people in the office. People always coming up to me asking me how my weekend was or what I plan to do this upcoming weekend. Honestly, even if this job was all work from home, I would still ask to come into the office at least one day a week as I think at the office you build relationships with key people there and it's far easier building those relationships when you're there in person. My only concern is their office is WAY further away than my current employer's office, both now and after their move. I estimate commuting to this new company would take 1.5 hours each way. Not a fan of that drive at all, but they said they would work with me on office hours to allow me the flexibility of dropping off and picking up my kid during those office days. Just to be safe, I plan on commuting to their office a couple times this week to see how the commute feels during normal driving hours. If I find that with traffic that drive takes closer to 2 hours each way, it would definitely be a deal breaker for me. With my current company relocating already and my commute about to increase 5 days a week, I figure I can take a longer commute only 2 days a week, but only by so much. We'll see.
Thanks again for everyone's continued help and support on this. I've been praying for guidance too, so hopefully something soon will come to light that can have me feeling more confident one way or another...
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Post by dschroll on Jun 3, 2014 23:14:58 GMT -5
Haha....just had a conversation with my boss today about the upcoming move to the new office. Told him I need flexibility on office hours since the new office is a longer drive for me and I'm at the mercy of my daughter's school hours in terms of drop off/pick up. He said no problem. Not only that, but he advised me that after the move the company is also going to implement a telecommute policy and I'll be able to work from home one day a week. No one wants to make this easy on me, do they?
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Post by reaper on Jun 4, 2014 5:26:37 GMT -5
My commute is 10 minutes. I can't imagine giving up hours of my time every day like that. Why don't you move closer to whichever job you pick? Kids hate moving schools but they adjust very quickly. I think it's worth it if you do t move too often.
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Post by dschroll on Jun 4, 2014 7:03:08 GMT -5
My commute is 10 minutes. I can't imagine giving up hours of my time every day like that. Why don't you move closer to whichever job you pick? Kids hate moving schools but they adjust very quickly. I think it's worth it if you do t move too often. My wife works in the city and we only have one car between the 2 of us. We live close to a train station so she can commute to Chicago and I have close access to a highway to go out west to the burbs. We could move but are underwater on our home and would take a big loss trying to sell it. I'd rather not deal with trying to rent the place out if possible. Additionally, we love the area we live in. We will probably move eventually just to get a bigger place, but are waiting for the market to recover some so we can sell the place without taking a bath.
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Post by fatty on Jun 10, 2014 12:31:21 GMT -5
I was going to title the subject of the E3 thread "E3 2014 aka Interview Day" but forgot about it right before E3 started. Hopefully the interview went pretty well for you.
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Post by reaper on Jun 10, 2014 12:54:52 GMT -5
That was today!? Update!
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Post by dschroll on Jun 10, 2014 16:38:06 GMT -5
Job interview was yesterday. Was a good interview I thought. Ended up being in a room with 4 other people: President, VP, sales guy and sales manager. They all took turn asking me questions and we had some nice conversations about things. In the end, I was myself and was honest with them in terms of any concerns I had. They addressed my main concerns and I felt good walking out. Most likely if they offer me the job (assuming it's a good offer) I'll take it. Otherwise, if they don't offer it to me, then it's probably for the best because during that interview I was pretty much the person they would be getting, so if they don't feel like that fits well into their culture, then I probably wouldn't be happy there either.
Will keep everyone posted. Thanks for thinking of me.
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Post by reaper on Jun 10, 2014 16:46:33 GMT -5
Wow! Big developments for the Schroll's
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Post by oldskoolboarder on Jun 10, 2014 22:20:21 GMT -5
Good attitude. I agree w/ your assessment, you were yourself. If you get it, I'd say take it.
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